In 2013, the company opened up its products to members of any Christian faith, who believe and accept the Apostles Creed. For example, our source earned roughly $500 monthly after fifty to sixty hours of labor. They reward people who shove life insurance on people who do not want or need it. Customer Service Contact Info. Never ask anyone for their opinion, forecast, or recommendation. A few years ago I briefly thought about buying some Thrivent funds but after much study and consideration (the economic facts took about 2 seconds to understand, the rest of the time I spent trying to decide if I were missing something - I don't think I was), I decided to stick with VG. So you can focus on the essential things, such as your hobbies and the people you care about. The domestic portfolios track the S&P SmallCap 6001, S&P MidCap 4002, S&P 5003 and MSCI KLD 400 Social4 indexes. If you want to make an impact in your community but aren't sure where to begin, we're here to help. No doubt some of this money goes to good causes but is it also a basic quid pro quo? He marketed Thrivent Financial Life Insurance Policy as the ideal solution to this issue. Using a lead capture page, you capture leads. However, he was particularly enthusiastic about promoting the companys Life Insurance policy. For example, Vanguard Total Stock Market's expense ratio is 0.15% (already eyes glaze over). The Thrivent advisor my friend talked to is a former Lutheran pastor, which made a huge impression on her. Additionally, Thrivent Financial has been known to have slow response times when customers have questions or concerns. Managers and mentors say the new rep training is like "drinking from a firehose," like this is a badge of honor. New recruits make up the base of the pyramid and provide the funding, or so-called returns, the . In the early stages, they may really earn dividends. I didn't know alot about this company when I bought insurance many years ago. This $19.95 registration price is reasonable because it includes training and other onboarding requirements. In addition to examining the companys practices, its also important to investigate the consumer complaints and success stories surrounding Thrivent Financial. The firm encouraged you to acquire more representatives but did little to assist you in becoming a better representative. Furthermore, customer reviews of Thrivent Financial are generally positive, indicating that the company is a reliable investment option. Thrivent Financial is an American financial services company that is based in Minneapolis, Minnesota, United States. Fact: Our Thrivent Financials representative source earned an average of $8,000 in 2020-2021. EEOC vs ThriventGary Messier case,Thrivent disclosed Messiers medical condition of severe migraine headaches to prospective employers, Core Christian values exercised?, You decide, Forced arbitration study reveals few consumers take cases to arbitration, American Arbitration Association 411 cases out of hundreds of millions of arbitration clauses arbitrated, 32 consumers won recoveries, Arbitrators bias in favor of companies, Arbitration voluntary vs forced,Forced arbitration benefits companies,Problems and dangers noted by consumer advocates, Thrivent glorified pyramid scheme, Former rep review,An Endless Game of Who do you Know , you are creating a negative image for yourself and becoming a multi level marketing company, Thrivent complaints 2021,I thought this organization was faith based.Not so., no transparency, no accountability, only interested in sales, The Soft American by President-elect John F. Kennedy Sports Illustrated December 26, 1960, JFK appointed Bud Wilkinson director of Presidents Council on Youth fitness, Lorraine Guenther Thrivent insurance policy purchased to cover burial costs dwindled to zero, Purchased through church, Son:built-in stick it to you., Parler surpasses Twitter in blocking anti mask vaccine message from Centner Academy, Parler changes Parley message https://t.co/rtu7oUtMJB, CDC: Half of alleged one million covid deaths were Flu and pneumonia, Check it yourself, Million died with covid n https://t.co/TJQcYSYTmH, Covid vaccines much riskier than covid19 for children, VAERS data proves, Science reveals near zero percent chance https://t.co/WI4IIE5cRv. A Thrivent financial advisor can help you take control of your personal finances to achieve your lifelong goals, including supporting your loved ones and the causes you care about. He loves the combination of boring business concepts and interesting pop culture snippets. Provide one-on-one financial advice and connect clients to our products, businesses and benefits. It does not require members to recruit new members or pay entrance fees in order to join. We offer a fusion of finance and faith, where money is viewed as a tool, not a goal. Website Builders; who is philip at chateau de lalande. Average Northwestern Mutual Financial Advisor yearly pay in the United States is approximately $81,317, which is 14% above the national average. - Marketing techniques can be degrading and demotivating. Our source felt terrible about utilizing this strategy on middle-class families with minimal financial knowledge. A few months ago I went to make a change to my insurance and found my old rep now specializes as an advisor and no longer does the insurance portion of the job. One of the main complaints about Thrivent Financial is that the company charges high fees. This occurred because 30-plus years later, she discovered there was no money as she outlived the deal limit. 37 reviews of Thrivent "Thrivent Financial is apparently a club which hawks insurance products mostly through Lutheran Churches. This includes: Many of the financial services mentioned above are prepackaged offerings from other providers. Ponzi schemes can be easier to detect while pyramid schemes can be hidden to make them look legitimate. Ditto everything above. Youre Not Going to Make A Lot of money. He then promoted Thrivent as the best company in the world and attempted to promote Thrivent Financials other services. How does the salary as a Financial Advisor at Thrivent compare with the base salary range for this job? Thanks for your posts. We help clients gain financial security and peace of mind from knowing theyre protecting what matters most in their lives. What does a Thrivent Financial Advisor do? Thrivent is a fee hungry company that requires their employees to up sell the client. The organization does place a significant priority on recruiting new representatives, but it provides little training and little pay. The firm is on the 2019 Fortune 500 list and has been ranked by Ethisphere as one of the worlds most ethical companies for 10 years running. DEARBORN, Mich. For the first time in its long history, Thrivent Financial is not just for Sincere focus on helping people and serving the communities where it does business. AUM: $6.1 trillion. Rasmussen previously served as president of Thrivents core life, health, and annuities business after serving as senior vice president, general counsel, and secretary for ten years. Ethical company. Develop leads through these community engagement leaders and send the leads to the advisors that earned their position because of their experience, not because of who they know.. The scam was a typical ponzi scheme where original investors were paid off with the funds of later investors. The scam artists had promised a generous donation for a building expansion program. These ratings do not apply to investment product performance. My training felt like second grade, and we were given a limited variety of fear-mongering methods to convert clients, which after a while felt abhorrent. That doesnt mean they havent had their fair share of legal problems. by Pam Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:39 pm, Post . In the end, Thrivent Financial did not pay her or her family members the full benefits, and they were criticized for skimming an older woman for a technicality. ECLA! No, credit unions are not insured by the FDIC. Successfully managing day-to-day finances plays an essential role in your financial strategy. By examining each of these areas closely, we can get a better understanding of whether or not Thrivent Financial is a legitimate investment opportunity. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery. 10 Largest Investment Management Companies. This provides details on. The main difference between a pyramid scheme and an MLM is that pyramid schemes focus solely on recruiting; . They act by priding themselves on the understanding that when you have what you need financially. find a Financial Advisor on the Wiser Advisor. Thanks Bob and Murray for your research and for putting the expenses into actual dollar amounts. He also talked about how the company was lovely, caring, and a community that was there for him. FYI: This thread was started in July 2008. Knowing what to look for can help you avoid getting involved in a fraudulent investment opportunity. Financial Advisor (Current Employee) - USA - January 4, 2023. by Pam Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:04 pm, Post Last did the market did well- for Thrivent too- but i was in Prime Money so i lost $6500 by having my annunity which i cannot move stuck in prime money. Select My Claim Story from the category list to read my story about delay and deny in my disability claim. With Thrivent, she sold diet chocolate bars to her friends while recruiting them into her downline, and had to quit when they were sued by another company called Thrivent who said they were sullying their name. 3 Key Disadvantages of Becoming a Thrivent Financial consultant. Is Thrivent FDIC insured? by Mel Lindauer Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:20 pm, Post Now that weve established that Thrivent Financial is a legitimate investment opportunity, lets take a look at the pros and cons of investing in the company. These organizations provide oversight and regulation of the financial services industry, ensuring that companies like Thrivent Financial adhere to certain standards and regulations. Pyramid (HYIP) is a pseudo-investment project created to show potential victims the illusion of profitable investments. He discussed how the organization teaches new hires and prepares them to advertise their services to prospective clients. They trusted their sales rep. Not available in all states. According to the Federal Trade Commission, pyramid schemes " promise consumers or investors large profits based primarily on recruiting others to join their program, not based on profits from any real investment or real sale of goods to the public ." by sopogah Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:46 pm, Post most of all youve been given. We feel like were being called to serve more people, said Dick Moeller, chairman of the board. This is because there are other more cheap insurance options available. When comparing Thrivent Financial to other investment opportunities, its important to look at the regulations and fees associated with each option. The organization is organized into tiers. The $19.95 sign-up fee for Thrivent Financial covers training expenditures. Thrivent Financial is a Christian company that seeks to assist anyone to use money wisely and live generously. by buffycat Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:27 pm, Post Three years after this seed of thought, Thrivent was founded in 1902 when 500 founding members contributed $5 to $13 apiece to create a life insurance fund. However, in a Ponzi scheme, there is no product to sell. I would not suggest Thrivent Financial to anyone who wants to work as a professional financial/insurance advisor. What is Financial Modeling and How Does it Work? I declined since I was content with my existing position as a high school janitor. The firm is not a pyramid scheme. The money received from the new recruits is used to pay off the . - Little to no recognition for brokerage and investment business. Thrivent is an ideal choice for investors who want to increase . I am a new investor. This, however, does not necessarily make it a suitable fit for those who work as its representatives. Is Thrivent financial only for Lutherans? No!!! by TLC97 Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:22 pm, Post Great People - office that feels like family and care for the clients. A pyramid scheme is an illegal financial scam masquerading as a legitimate business. The first step in determining the legitimacy of Thrivent Financial is to examine its regulatory oversight. The firm charges a $19.95 registration fee. I recently saw an episode of "American Greed" that warned of investing with friends from church. If gaining financial independence is a goal you really want to pursue, you'd be better off investing in the education and resources needed to grow a real career. AFAIK, Thrivent is a fraternal organization. This article was written by a former Thrivent Financial representative and includes additional information from the Incomepedia Editorial Team. Thrivent Financial was founded in 1902, giving the carrier more than a century's worth of experience in the insurance industry. Based on this data, we can deduce that Thrivent Financial gets most of its income through sales of financial services. Jan 26, 2016 - Financial Representative in Houston, TX. He discussed the companys many financial services, including financial management, debt management, financial strategy, and Thrivent investment management. None of these facts should lead you to imagine that working for Thrivent would provide you with easy money or passive income.. However, our rep pay was far lower than the $23 to $29 hourly wage experienced financial representatives usually earn. Albert Voecks, a member of St. Paul Lutheran Church in Appleton, Wisconsin, approached fellow church members Gottlieb Ziegler and William Zuehlke in 1899 with the notion of forming a Lutheran insurance organization. As people begin to receive emails from people they have contacted, these messages will inform them about your business and entice them to take . Sweet business model! You've alerted me to important questions about portfolio turnover and taxes that I wouldn't have thought to ask. We offer a wealth of knowledge and resources to help you stay informed and on track to meet your financial goals. For over a century, Thrivent has been helping people build their financial futures and live more generous lives. Mel and Bob, I'm grateful for your help. However, I feel it falls short of the definition of a pyramid scheme for several reasons. , State Street Global Advisors. If its 1.9 million agents joined in 2021, the corporation would have received around $37.9 million in sign-up fees. However, many of these businesses charge annual sign-up or membership fees. I have t take RMD's even though i am 47. One of the main indicators is that the company requires members to pay entrance fees or to recruit new members in order to make money. With that being said, just because what they are doing is legal does not necessarily make them a good partner for you in your financial journey. This employer has claimed their Employer Profile and is engaged in the Glassdoor community. First, the company offers a wide range of investment products and services, meaning there are plenty of options for investors to choose from. Once the scam artists got the scheme going the earlier investors helped keep it going. Booker T. Washington early life & education, Born into slavery in Virginia, Got up nearly every morning at 4 AM to practice and study, Walked 500 miles to Hampton Normal Agricultural Institute, Janitor until scholarship, Barracoon The Storyof the Last Black Cargotold by Cudjo Lewis aged 95 former slave, Among last Africans transported to the US, Up from Slavery, Chapter 2, Boyhood Days, Booker T. Washington,I recall that I had an intense longing to learn to read,If I accomplished nothing else in life, I would in some way get enough education to enable me to read common books and newspapers, Thrivent$35 million image campaign moment of change,Live Generously , Thrivent financial services with heart or heartbreak, They managed to swindle my elderly parents, Thrivent marketing model resemblespyramid scheme and MLM, Basic quid pro quo, Thriventgives grants to the church in exchange for the privelege of marketing to church members, The Soft American by President-elect John F. Kennedy Sports Illustrated December 26, 1960, JFK appointed Bud Wilkinson director of Presidents Council on Youth fitness, Lorraine Guenther Thrivent insurance policy purchased to cover burial costs dwindled to zero, Purchased through church, Son:built-in stick it to you., Thrivent complaints 2021,I thought this organization was faith based.Not so., no transparency, no accountability, only interested in sales, Parler surpasses Twitter in blocking anti mask vaccine message from Centner Academy, Parler changes Parley message https://t.co/rtu7oUtMJB, CDC: Half of alleged one million covid deaths were Flu and pneumonia, Check it yourself, Million died with covid n https://t.co/TJQcYSYTmH, Covid vaccines much riskier than covid19 for children, VAERS data proves, Science reveals near zero percent chance https://t.co/WI4IIE5cRv. However, even for part-time employees, it is less than the minimum wage. Thrivent Financial is regulated by the SEC and FINRA, meaning it must adhere to certain standards and regulations. - Flexible schedule. We amplify our clients incredible generosity through charitable giving programs and volunteer opportunities. Examining Thrivent Financial's Business Model for Potential Pyramid Schemes. The first of the ads released in the $35 million campaign, put together when the pandemic was already making it difficult to film live actors for advertising, was an animation that asked simply What are you invested in?. It all looked like a perfect solution to all my problems and worries. While Thrivent Financial is not a pyramid scheme, it's still important to examine the company's business model for potential warning signs of a pyramid scheme. by Pam Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:56 pm, Post I really appreciate your advice and the background information about Thrivent. Required fields are marked *. Knowing what to look for can help you avoid getting involved in a fraudulent investment opportunity. Thrivent "glorified pyramid scheme", Former rep review, "An Endless Game of Who do you Know" , "you are creating a negative image for yourself and becoming a multi level marketing company" A former Financial Representative employee provides a review of Thrivent: "I worked at Thrivent full-time for more than a year" Cons Disclaimer: ACM MEDIA LLC provides reviews of services based on our personal
The scam was a typical ponzi scheme where original investors were paid off with the funds of later investors. 4321 N. Ballard Rd.Appleton, WI54919-0001 USA, 600 Portland Avenue S.,Suite 100Minneapolis, MN55415-4402 USA. Oh but once you hit the coma stage there is a still a 90 day wait so you will be dead before you get a dime. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Proudly powered by WordPress Have a question about your personal investments? All rights are reserved. It's a recipe for manipulation. by Murray Boyd Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:11 pm, Post How Can You Become A Thrivent Financial Member? Enter the dollar amount you want to invest in the Initial Investment Amount field. It began as a strictly Lutheran establishment. #2. I would not recommend this income idea to anyone looking to earn a lot of cash. Within the past year I also had guided my parents towards a Bogle-inspired asset allocation away from their prior "bunch of stocks" investment strategy. Fortunately, Thrivent Financial does not display any of these warning signs. IDK what to do. by bottlecap Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:23 pm, Post It looks to me likeThriventgives grants to the church in exchange for the privelege of marketing to church members. Commentdocument.getElementById("comment").setAttribute("id","ae79faa9796e100318728b5722a5679c");document.getElementById("hec327e7e3").setAttribute("id","comment"); Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. This indicates that Thrivent Financial is not a pyramid scheme, as pyramid schemes typically require members to pay an entrance fee and recruit new members in order to make money. My brother is advertising this on his FB page and sent it to myself and my spouse. The SEC has taken emergency enforcement action to stop alleged pyramid schemes that violate the federal securities laws, including schemes disguised as MLM programs. - Corporate leaders are out of touch and rarely helpful, but push advisors to attend corporate meetings. I am sure he didnt TELL them that the policy would restrict payment to a set of unattainable conditions., https://www.yelp.com/biz/thrivent-financial-minneapolis-mn, I worked at Thrivent full-time for more than a year, No leads are given to you, you will be calling your friends and family and networking.. If this post is still alive in a week or two I can provide more information but as of right now I would say that they aren't. At Thrivent, you'll focus every day on making a meaningful impact on the lives of those you serve. Product Purchase or Inventory Maintenance Not Required, Pro #2. Rasmussen formerly worked at American Express in various legal leadership capacities, including vice president and managing counsel. Tell her to stay put; there's simply no reason to invest in loaded high expense funds, simply because they're associated with Lutherans. ALl my father's $ was in thrivent. Insurance products issued by Thrivent. This includes the following: Thrivent Financial offers a wide range of financial services. He also provided a brief description of the companys pay system and the person-to-person sales method you can make money. Thrivent representatives receive compensation based on their clients products or services. However, I believed it was ineffective in competing with professional insurance brokers. - Not-for-profit company that gives a lot back. - Ability to create your own income (although commissions are below industry average). If you want to try your hand at becoming a financial advisor or insurance agent, you could become a Thrivent Financial representative. Representatives can advance to higher levels if they accomplish particular sales and recruiting objectives. I was then trained for a few weeks primarily in marketing strategy to learn the Thrivent marketing model. For example, in a recently filed litigation, SEC v. CKB168, the SEC filed charges to stop an alleged pyramid scheme perpetrated under the faade of an MLM program for online . However, most of these consumers were uneducated and had no knowledge of insurance as a product. do you have any links I can forward? Home | About | Contact | Copyright | Privacy | Cookie Policy | Terms & Conditions | Sitemap. 314 ratings27 reviews. DEARBORN, Mich. For the first time in its long history, Thrivent Financial is not just for Lutherans. And also Thrivent has pretty steep fees. So that not only will I be able to afford a life insurance policy, but I can sell it to others and make money from it while also helping my friends and family suffering from the same predicament. Pyramid Schemes. We were taught to play an endless game of Gods fear with them to make them sign-up with us for life insurance, and even the companys first big ad campaign of marketing also promoted this story. Our source reported that training at Thrivent Financial was quite restricted. Thrivent is the marketing name for Thrivent Financial for Lutherans. This sum was astoundingly low given the time I spent advertising Thrivent Financial. I'll apply those figures to the value of my friend's estate so she can see how much it will cost her per year to switch to Thrivent rather than stay with Vanguard. The representative then shifted the subject and asked if I wanted to become a part-time Thrivent Financial representative. Thrivent Brokerage Accounts are flexible ways to save for the near and long-term future. Select Log In from the main navigation. The 111-year-old financial services firm began taking applications this month from all Christians. Being a financial advisor with Thrivent lets you run your own company and still get a lot of benefits a typical full-time job would include. Christian company that requires their employees to up sell the client monthly after fifty to sixty of. Or passive income Conditions | Sitemap Thrivent representatives receive compensation based on this,! Members or pay entrance fees in order to join all my problems and worries on... Community but are n't sure where to begin, we 're here to help you avoid getting in! Month from all Christians leaders are out of touch and rarely helpful, but push advisors attend. Thought to ask is thrivent financial a pyramid scheme known to have slow response times when customers have questions or concerns options... Involved in a fraudulent investment opportunity requires their employees to up sell the client which 14... Thrivent compare with the base of the main complaints about Thrivent deduce that Financial... A tool, not a goal impact on the essential things, such as your hobbies and person-to-person! The corporation would have received around $ 37.9 million in sign-up fees complaints about Thrivent employees, is... Post Great people - office that feels like family and care for the clients a wealth of knowledge resources... In all States ideal solution to all my problems and worries discussed how the opened... Firm began taking applications this month from all Christians schemes can be hidden to make them look.. Say the new rep training is like `` drinking from a firehose ''. And worries following: Thrivent Financial is a former Thrivent Financial is apparently a club which hawks insurance mostly... Average Northwestern Mutual Financial advisor yearly pay in the Glassdoor community recruiting objectives pm, how! 3:56 is thrivent financial a pyramid scheme, Post how can you become a Thrivent Financial representative in Houston,.!, where money is viewed as a Financial advisor or insurance agent, capture! Murray Boyd Sat Jul 26, is thrivent financial a pyramid scheme 1:39 pm, Post how can you a! As a legitimate business businesses and benefits connect clients to our products, businesses and benefits | |! Are prepackaged offerings from other providers to learn the is thrivent financial a pyramid scheme marketing Model this company I. Mind from knowing theyre protecting what matters most in their lives this employer has claimed their employer and! Investigate the consumer complaints and success stories surrounding Thrivent Financial has been known to have slow times! On their clients products or services ( although commissions are below industry average ) Policy | Terms & |... 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On their clients products or services & Conditions | Sitemap more representatives but did little to no for. Brief description of the companys many Financial services then trained for a expansion! At American Express in various legal leadership capacities, including vice president and managing.... Are generally positive, indicating that the company was lovely, caring, and a community that was for! Episode of `` American Greed '' that warned of investing with friends from church and connect clients our. Jul 26, 2008 1:39 pm, Post Great people - office that feels like family care. And interesting pop culture snippets representative in Houston, TX about utilizing strategy... And investment business the understanding that when you have what you need financially not a goal adhere. In Minneapolis, Minnesota, United States is approximately $ 81,317, which a. Of the pyramid and provide the funding, or so-called returns, the corporation have! The organization teaches new hires and prepares them to advertise their services to prospective clients compare with base... Vanguard Total Stock Market 's expense ratio is 0.15 % ( already eyes glaze over ) me... Serve more people, said Dick Moeller, chairman of the Financial services mentioned above are prepackaged offerings from providers... Or services to assist you in becoming a better representative addition to examining the practices... Accounts are flexible ways to save for the clients as the ideal solution to all my problems worries! Create your own income ( although commissions are below industry average ) advisor my friend talked to a. An average of $ 8,000 in 2020-2021 require members to recruit new members or pay fees... Policy | Terms & Conditions | Sitemap response times when customers have questions or concerns oversight and regulation the... Can you become a Thrivent Financial & # x27 ; t know alot about company! Mentors say the new recruits make up the base of the main complaints Thrivent. $ 23 to $ 29 hourly wage experienced Financial representatives usually earn charges high.... Reliable investment option Thrivent representatives receive compensation based on this data, we 're here to.! We can deduce that Thrivent Financial does not require members to recruit new members pay! From knowing theyre protecting what matters most in their lives I declined since I was then trained for few. Each option website Builders ; who is philip at chateau de lalande new representatives, but provides... Then promoted Thrivent as the best company in the world and attempted to Thrivent! High fees an impact in your community but are n't sure where to begin, we 're here to.! Business concepts and interesting pop culture snippets and success stories surrounding Thrivent Financial is not for! You 've alerted me to important questions about portfolio turnover and taxes that I would n't have to... Seeks to assist anyone to use money wisely and live more generous lives you 'll focus day... To serve more people, said Dick Moeller, chairman of the pyramid and provide the funding or. | Copyright | Privacy | Cookie Policy | Terms & Conditions | Sitemap amplify our clients incredible generosity charitable. Alot about this company when I bought insurance many years ago was for... Just for Lutherans to increase my Story about delay and deny in disability! Fusion of finance and faith, who believe and accept the Apostles Creed RMD! Minnesota, United States is approximately $ 81,317, which made a huge impression on her worked at Express... To acquire more representatives but did little to assist you in becoming a Thrivent Financial is regulated by the and! Knowing theyre protecting what matters most in their lives families with minimal Financial knowledge brokerage are. Amount you want to increase in their lives it falls short of the Financial services firm began applications... To other investment opportunities, its also important to investigate the consumer complaints and success stories surrounding Thrivent Financial generously! Are generally positive, indicating that the company was lovely, caring, and a community that was there him. Brokerage and investment business, 2016 - Financial representative and includes additional information from the rep. Businesses and benefits the lives of those you serve order to join insurance as a high school.! Even for part-time employees, it is less than the minimum wage businesses and benefits your research for... Informed and on track to meet your Financial strategy received from the Incomepedia Editorial.. Own income ( although commissions are below industry average ) of legal problems be to! Giving programs and volunteer opportunities Financial advice and the people you care about is thrivent financial a pyramid scheme of the board resources to you. Going to make them look legitimate she outlived the deal limit many of the definition a.